So I finished the fic for ![[profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
undermistletoe ! Thank god for having a long Thanksgiving vacation, or it wouldn't have been done. Now trying to get betas lined up - new fandom and all.
I finally figured out that you can watch complete episodes of Torchwood on You Tube, and spent a couple of days doing a marathon. (Don't worry, Torchwood Producers. I'll still buy the DVD's when they come out.) Then I went back and watched the Jack episodes of Doctor Who. Seeing all that together put a lot of things in perspective for me.
undermistletoe ! Thank god for having a long Thanksgiving vacation, or it wouldn't have been done. Now trying to get betas lined up - new fandom and all.I finally figured out that you can watch complete episodes of Torchwood on You Tube, and spent a couple of days doing a marathon. (Don't worry, Torchwood Producers. I'll still buy the DVD's when they come out.) Then I went back and watched the Jack episodes of Doctor Who. Seeing all that together put a lot of things in perspective for me.
Like, one of my prompts for the challenge is Hurt/Comfort. I realized as I was writing that Jack's entire experience with the Doctor has been a long series of Hurt, with no Comfort. In fact, while I'm writing Jack/Ten I have to put myself into a bit of denial, because the Doctor has been consistently horrible to Jack, with a few moments of levity with Nine. It makes me feel that the Doctor has to do some serious introspection and groveling before he deserves to get together with Jack. Which brings me to my other prompt: AU. Make it good, Doc!
This also touches on my need to have a male/male pairing be equals, with no big power differential between them. I move them that way in the story - a prerequisite for them getting together, for me. The images in The Sound of Drums of Jack and the Doctor walking shoulder to shoulder, with Martha trailing behind, really did it for me. In a lot of ways in that episode Jack assumes and demonstrates his equality with the Doctor. Oh, yeah!
It also impressed me that Utopia starts like the same day Jack revives after Abbadon. I wondered how he could be so energetic and light so soon after that. Jack on DW series 3 is like Jack on DW series 1, not like Jack on Torchwood - expressive and playful. Then I figured, it's like being on vacation for him. Suddenly, he's not in charge, he's not responsible for everybody's lives or saving the universe. The Doctor is. It must be such a relief for him!
Is that a contradiction of what I just said before about equality? Hey, I can hold contradictory things in my mind at the same time. ;)
I have seen the Master before, in the old series, but I don't remember the details of his relationship with the Doctor. Maybe that would help me understand the Doctor's need to save and forgive him, because after all he did to the Earth, all the people he killed, how he terrorized Martha's family, what he did to the Doctor and we assume to Jack, and his plans to decimate the universe, I think it would be beyond my spiritual ability to forgive.
Seeing End of Days helped me accept the Doctor forgiving the Master. Jack's whole team betrayed him, and Owen even killed him (without knowing he would come back). And the first thing Jack does is forgive them. Wow, I thought that was powerful. It makes me want to write a fic where Jack and the Doctor talk about that, and Jack explains that he understands why the Doctor did it.
I like Jack and the Doctor paired, Nine or Ten, but it does seem that most fanfic writers have to ignore a lot of their history to get them there (which is okay - this is fantasy). The pairing I'm finding I really like is Jack/Martha. They could be so good for each other, and hot, too. I may actually have to write het again! (If this writing thing continues.)
I have nothing in principle against Rose/Doctor, but have read a couple of fics that really made me wary. I want the characters to stay in character, to a certain degree, anyway. When they get all romantic and domestic and settling down to have babies, um, no. The threesome, Rose/Jack/Doctor actually works better for me. Jack can bring an edge to it that lets them hook up without drowning in sweet.
I don't really see Jack/Ianto, even though the hints are there at the end of the series. The hints are there, though, in canon, and I suppose must be taken into account.
That's enough thinky thoughts for now.
This also touches on my need to have a male/male pairing be equals, with no big power differential between them. I move them that way in the story - a prerequisite for them getting together, for me. The images in The Sound of Drums of Jack and the Doctor walking shoulder to shoulder, with Martha trailing behind, really did it for me. In a lot of ways in that episode Jack assumes and demonstrates his equality with the Doctor. Oh, yeah!
It also impressed me that Utopia starts like the same day Jack revives after Abbadon. I wondered how he could be so energetic and light so soon after that. Jack on DW series 3 is like Jack on DW series 1, not like Jack on Torchwood - expressive and playful. Then I figured, it's like being on vacation for him. Suddenly, he's not in charge, he's not responsible for everybody's lives or saving the universe. The Doctor is. It must be such a relief for him!
Is that a contradiction of what I just said before about equality? Hey, I can hold contradictory things in my mind at the same time. ;)
I have seen the Master before, in the old series, but I don't remember the details of his relationship with the Doctor. Maybe that would help me understand the Doctor's need to save and forgive him, because after all he did to the Earth, all the people he killed, how he terrorized Martha's family, what he did to the Doctor and we assume to Jack, and his plans to decimate the universe, I think it would be beyond my spiritual ability to forgive.
Seeing End of Days helped me accept the Doctor forgiving the Master. Jack's whole team betrayed him, and Owen even killed him (without knowing he would come back). And the first thing Jack does is forgive them. Wow, I thought that was powerful. It makes me want to write a fic where Jack and the Doctor talk about that, and Jack explains that he understands why the Doctor did it.
I like Jack and the Doctor paired, Nine or Ten, but it does seem that most fanfic writers have to ignore a lot of their history to get them there (which is okay - this is fantasy). The pairing I'm finding I really like is Jack/Martha. They could be so good for each other, and hot, too. I may actually have to write het again! (If this writing thing continues.)
I have nothing in principle against Rose/Doctor, but have read a couple of fics that really made me wary. I want the characters to stay in character, to a certain degree, anyway. When they get all romantic and domestic and settling down to have babies, um, no. The threesome, Rose/Jack/Doctor actually works better for me. Jack can bring an edge to it that lets them hook up without drowning in sweet.
I don't really see Jack/Ianto, even though the hints are there at the end of the series. The hints are there, though, in canon, and I suppose must be taken into account.
That's enough thinky thoughts for now.
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From:
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But I never felt something very "mean" towards Jack. I felt that Nine manipulated Jack, but it was necessary to make him the hero he was all along.
It's only when I got to season 3 that I was shocked. I figured the Doctor thought he was dead. To suddenly realize that the Doctor knew all along and just abandoned him in a time and place he didn't belong to... And what exactly did he tell Rose? That was beyond mean and Jack forgave him way too quickly.
But I LOVED their relationship in Utopia and The Sound of Drums, especially when Jack was in that room with radiation and they had their talk.
Most of your points I agree on- the reason why I love Jack/Doctor so much, is because of all his companions, Jack has the best chance of being his equal. It probably wouldn't be immediate, and Jack has his team and responsibility, but The Doctor wouldn't have to worry about "you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend the rest of my life with you" bit. Plus Jack has shown that he's good with technology and fixing the TARDIS and could make decisions The Doctor simply can't. That's what I love about them.
Martha/Jack is interesting, but I feel like I haven't seen them connect enough. I'm hoping after her stint on TW I'll get a better indication of their dynamics and how they work together.
Jack/Ianto... While I kinda like it, I know it won't end well. Ianto is adorable and I fear Jack will just end up breaking his heart- cause it's Jack and I can't really see him staying with one person for too long (other than the Doctor, and even that would be years and years from now) and I doubt Ianto would be too keen on open relationships... Not to mention the whole "I can't die and will outlive you" thing can't be great for a relationship.
Personally I never got The Doctor forgiving The Master, but it's part of what annoys me about The Doctor. Maybe it's just the alien part of him, but he's TOO forgiving and TOO noble sometimes. Jack's team were tricked and he cared about them and Owen... Well Owen was messed up and he went too far, but they didn't open the Rift trying to kill everyone in Cardiff. The Master is a piece of work and didn't deserve The Doctor crying over his body and giving him a Darth Vader funeral.
As for the whole "Vacation thing"- I thought so too! At first I was surprised to see Jack from DW season 1 again- flirting by saying his name, charm and disarm. But then I realized how freeing it must be not to be responsible and not run the team. Just kick back and let The Doctor take him on an adventure like 'the good old days'.
This came out really long, didn't it? Oh well. I loved your thoughts and I love your fics even more!
From:
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But I agree, it's Ten's behavior that I can't wrap my head around. He seems so angry at Jack, when not by any stretch of the imagination could his immortality be considered Jack's fault. Weird. I've read fic that explains that it's the Doctor's attraction to Jack, which he can't handle, that makes him act that way. Okay, but still. Bad Doctor! No cookie!
The Doctor's much vaunted compassion certainly is circumstantial. So much for the Master, and so little for Jack. It makes it interesting trying to sort it all out and make sense of it, anyway.
In the new series Jack/Ianto is completely unavoidable but [keeping head down and trying to stay out of ship wars entirely!] I still don't see it (or Jack/Gwen) as a *true love* situation. After the year Jack just had on the Valiant it makes sense that he would have romanticized his teammates. He needed something to focus on to stay sane. But he can flirt and date and shag and enjoy them without it being very serious for him. I hope Ianto gets that for his sake!
Thanks for responding and giving me the chance to natter on again!
From:
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I think I did notice that the two episodes of the finale The Doctor and Rose both just asked/were worried about each other. Plus getting Jack to sacrifice himself... I'd have also liked some indication of concern, or even sadness when he must have realized Jack was dead (when The Daleks came)
While I think I prefer Ten/Jack to Nine/Jack (just cause Ten seems more playful and Jack's an immortal by then) I couldn't understand Ten's behavior. Telling Jack that he's wrong and abandoning him? Jeez. Poor Jack, I mean he woke up surrounded by Dalek ashes and alone (and how did his vortex manipulator suddenly work? Why didn't he use it to leave his ship in "The Doctor Dances"?) Maybe it's easier to forgive your enemies than to forgive your friends, but in that regard I prefer Jack to Ten. Jack can be ruthless to his enemies and forgive his friends for betraying and murdering him. Ten will hate a friend who did nothing but sacrifice for him, but will forgive his mortal enemy who nearly destroyed the Earth and tortured him (and Jack) for ayear. Bad Ten!
Like I said- I don't see ANY long lasting relationship for Jack in the near future. So he can be with anyone, but I hope they end it ameccably.